What Would It Take to Actually Trust Each Other? The Game Theory Dilemma

So much of our world today can be summed up in the cold logic of “if I don’t, they will.” This is the foundation of game theory, which holds that cooperation and virtue are irrational; that all that matters is the race to make the most money, gain the most power, and play the winning hand. This way of thinking can feel inescapable, like a fundamental law of human nature. But our guest today argues that it doesn’t have to be this way. That the logic of game theory is a human invention, a way of thinking that we’ve learned — and that we can unlearn by daring to trust each other again. It’s critical that we do, because AI is the ultimate agent of game theory and once it’s fully entangled we might be permanently stuck in the game theory world. In this episode, Tristan and Aza explore the game theory dilemma — the idea that if I adopt game theory logic and you don’t, you lose — with Dr. S.M. Amadae, a professor of Political Science at the University of Helsinki. She's also the director at the Center for the Study of Existential Risk at the University of Cambridge and the author of “Prisoners of Reason: Game Theory and the Neoliberal Economy.” RECOMMENDED MEDIA “Prisoners of Reason: Game Theory and the Neoliberal Economy” by S.M. Amadae (2015) The Cambridge Centre for the Study of Existential Risk “Theory of Games and Economic Behavior” by John von Neumann and Oskar Morgenstern (1944) Further reading on the importance of trust in Finland Further reading on Abraham Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs RAND’s 2024 Report on Strategic Competition in the Age of AI Further reading on Marshall Rosenberg and nonviolent communication The study on self/other overlap and AI alignment cited by Aza Further reading on The Day After (1983) RECOMMENDED YUA EPISODES America and China Are Racing to Different AI Futures The Crisis That United Humanity—and Why It Matters for AI Laughing at Power: A Troublemaker’s Guide to Changing Tech The Race to Cooperation with David Sloan Wilson Clarifications: The proposal for a federal preemption on AI was enacted by President Trump on December 11, 2025, shortly after this recording. Aza said that "The Day After" was the most watched TV event in history when it aired. It was actually the most watched TV film, the most watched TV event was the finale of MASH Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You can listen to What Would It Take to Actually Trust Each Other? The Game Theory Dilemma online on Radio and Podcast. Open the player on this page to stream the available audio.

What Would It Take to Actually Trust Each Other? The Game Theory Dilemma is an episode from Your Undivided Attention by Center for Humane Technology.

This episode is 00:45:28 long.

This episode was published on Jan 8, 2026.

Yes. Use the heart button on the episode page to add it to your favorite episodes list.

Yes. This page shows related episodes from Your Undivided Attention when more episodes are available from the podcast feed.