Church and Empire

The Iran war has produced an unlikely main character: the Pope. This week, our dear friend and former colleague Santiago Ramos returns to the pod. He joins Christine and Damir to unpack the escalating clash between the Trump administration and the Catholic Church over the war, Trump’s various blasphemies, and JD Vance’s remarkable journey from Catholic conversion to, well, rediscovering Protestantism. The conversation then turns to more interesting matters. What does the Catholic tradition actually say about just war, and does anyone in Washington care? Santi argues that the real story isn’t just about applying just war principles — it’s about the Vatican’s deeper commitment to a post-WWII global order that it sees every American war chipping away at. He draws a sharp distinction between just war and holy war, arguing that Secretary of War Pete Hegseth’s invocations of divine mandate are what really set off the Pope. Christine is fascinated by the public’s unexpected hunger for moral authority in a cynical age — and by the spectacle of a charismatic, English-speaking, social-media-fluentAmerican pope suddenly becoming the most compelling critic of the administration. And Damir, true to form, grants the Pope his due as a political operator while insisting that the real story is simpler: while this is a stupid war with no rationale, the savvy Pope saw an opportunity to play politics. The conversation ends with an unlikely convergence, as Christine gets Damir to all but confess his belief in original sin. Required Reading: * Christine Emba, “What a Catholic Church Unafraid of Donald Trump Means to the World” ( NYT ). * Ross Douthat, “Trump’s Blasphemy is a Warning” ( NYT ). * Jacques Maritain on just war ( Commonweal ). * Pope John XXIII, Pacem in Terris ( Vatican ). * Phil Klay on just war principles and the Iran war ( YouTube ). * Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan, “How Trump Took the U.S. to War With Iran” ( NYT ). This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wisdomofcrowds.live/

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Church and Empire is an episode from Wisdom of Crowds by Shadi Hamid & Damir Marusic.

This episode is 71:08 long.

This episode was published on May 1, 2026.

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