Science is what we do to keep from lying to ourselves: A conversation with Bruce Jamieson, Karl Birkeland, and Joe Stock

“Science is What We Do to Keep from Lying to Ourselves” ~ Richard Feynman. In this conversation, Bruce Jamieson is back to interview Dr. Karl Birkeland and Joe Stock for a deep dive into snow science. Jamieson brings us with him on a snow science journey alongside two of the industry’s top authors and experts on snow avalanches. Their conversations comment on the importance of the science side of the industry as “understanding how things work allows us to anticipate conditions that are outside of our experience.” Interview Highlights: - Stopping to dig a snow pit or review & interpret observations helps groups engage with the snowpack, fosters curiosity, and encourages collaborative decision-making - Long-term practitioners often become humble and curious due to encountering surprises and unknowns in avalanche work - The amount of science needed depends on the individual and their goals; more knowledge can help practitioners and recreationists make better decisions, especially in unfamiliar conditions - People benefit from a tiered training framework: core skills in main courses coupled with more science topics through CPD and ISSWs. Joe Stock is an IFMGA mountain guide who has distilled decades of skiing, climbing, guiding and teaching avalanche courses into a step-by-step system outlined in The Avalanche Factor - a handbook for recreational skiers and climbers who want to get into backcountry avalanche terrain using their own power. Karl Birkeland’s The Starting Zone is an e-book specifically targeting avalanche professionals and advanced recreationists. It’s an essential resource for avalanche professionals, blending cutting-edge science with practical avalanche application. Thanks to the sponsors of the show. Legacy Sponsors: Darren Johnson Avalanche Education Memorial Fund AVSS Drone Amplified Partner Sponsors: CIL Avalanche Safeback onX Backcountry Episode Sponsor: Open Snow Music: Ketsa Artwork: Mike Tea Production: Caleb Merrill, Bob Keating

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Science is what we do to keep from lying to ourselves: A conversation with Bruce Jamieson, Karl Birkeland, and Joe Stock is an episode from The Avalanche Hour Podcast by The Avalanche Hour.

This episode is 01:01:27 long.

This episode was published on Jan 1, 2026.

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