Surviving chaos

This week in London, Mark Leonard introduced his new book Surviving Chaos: Geopolitics When the Rules Fail and reflected on what it means to navigate a world in which old assumptions about rules-based order, power and international cooperation no longer hold. ECFR’s new weekly accompaniment podcast series “Surviving Chaos” will introduce the most interesting and controversial thinkers to explain the current period. The first episode brings together a conversation between Mark and Carl Bildt , former prime minister and former foreign minister of Sweden; Ivan Krastev , chair of the Centre for Liberal Strategies; and Helle Thorning-Schmidt , former prime minister of Denmark, moderated by Gideon Rachman , chief foreign affairs commentator at the Financial Times . Opening the discussion, EU ambassador to the UK Pedro Serrano highlighted the importance of a strong and united Europe in defending peace, prosperity and democratic values, before the panel explored how policymakers can move from rigid grand strategies to more “artisan” approaches to power. They also considered whether the current moment represents a temporary crisis or a deeper rupture—and the impact on Europe’s security, economic model and political identity. From the future of the transatlantic relationship to the war in Ukraine, to AI surveillance and the Middle East, the discussion examined how global instability is impacting the choices facing European decision-makers. Drawing on Mark’s argument that the world is in an age of “unorder”, the speakers discussed the types of political imagination, resilience and practical action Europeans will need. The crucial question: How can Europe navigate chaos? Mark Leonard’s book Surviving Chaos: Geopolitics When the Rules Fail is now available in all bookstores and online . This episode will also be published on the EEAS website . Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Surviving chaos is an episode from Mark Leonard's World in 30 Minutes by Mark Leonard's World in 30 Minutes.

This episode is 1:13:40 long.

This episode was published on Apr 24, 2026.

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