Episode 176 – A Chat With Nancy Lyons

Introducing Nancy Lyons CEO and co-founder of Clockwork , an enterprise web development company in Minneapolis MN. We’ve known her through the internet for years, and it was a delight to get to talk to her in this episode. Show Notes Transcript: Topher: Hey everybody, welcome to Hallway Chats. I’m Topher, your host, and my regular co-host is Nyasha and she’s here. Nyasha: Hey, I’m Nyasha. Topher: And I stepped on her introduction, and I’m sorry. Nyasha: It’s okay. Topher: Before we get going, I want to say thanks to Nexcess for our hosting, and for sponsoring us. They’re good friends. They’re good hosts. They have some really cool WooCommerce automated testing. I don’t know anybody else that does that. Automated testing is awesome, and will save you time and money. They have a cool Sales Performance Monitor and a plugin performance monitor to keep your store running super fast. All right, our guest today is Nancy Lyons. Welcome. Nyasha: Thank you. Thanks for having me. Topher: You’re welcome. The first time I ever heard of you was my wife and I bought a remote ticket to Prestige Home and we put it on TV. So we watched your talk on TV. And as it was going, it was like, is it too late to get there? How many hours is it to Minneapolis? And we decided we probably couldn’t get there before you were done. Then we came back the next year just to meet you and you weren’t there. Nancy: That’s rude. Topher: I’ve been mad at you ever since. Nancy: I’m just glad that you liked the talk. But I feel like we’ve talked off and on over the years on Twitter. Topher: Yeah. Nancy: Like when I realized who this podcast was with, I was like, “Oh, I know that guy. He and his wife are like a power couple of WordPress. Power couple.” Nyasha: Oh, yeah. Nancy: Right? Topher: Yeah. Well, we try. Yeah, I thought it was funny because usually I get requests all the time, all the time from office assistants. Hey, my boss is somebody who is so awesome. You really want to have him on your podcast. I’m just so tired of them, I just delete them almost out of hand. I literally was like, “Nancy? Oh, well, yeah, let’s do that.” Nancy: Sweet. I’m glad I didn’t get deleted. You know, we are on a growth mission, so we have a relatively new, about 18 months chief growth officer. And one of her tactics in the broader marketing plan is just a podcast campaign. So she’s actually working with a booking agency to identify relevant podcasts where, you know, I might be a helpful guest. And then they’re doing the outreach, which is weird for me too. Like, they do the whole media kit, and then they sell me. So I actually had a recording earlier today even and it’s weird to do a couple of recordings in the same day because then you’re like, did I say this already? Is this menopause? But it’s actually been fun because I’ve met, you know, people with different businesses and different interests and podcasts focused on a wide variety of things. So it’s actually been kind of fun. Topher: That’s cool. I really enjoy being on podcasts, too. And I too have done it that often, I think, “Oh, did I already say this? Do they want to hear the story again?” Nancy: Exactly. Right. I think this must be what early-onset dementia is like. Topher: So tell us who you are and why you’re here, what you do, and WordPress and all that kind of stuff. Where do you live? Nancy: Sure. Well, I live in Minneapolis. My name is Nancy Lyons, and I am the co-founder and CEO of a company called Clockwork. Clockwork is an experienced design and technology consultancy. A staple of our businesses is WordPress development. We also in the last couple of years spun out a smaller agile studio called Tempo. And Tempo is… you know, Clockwork does a lot of work for the enterprise and we roll in a lot of customer experience, user experience, and change strategy consulting, and then we actually build the solutions that we collaborate toward with our clients. And Clockwork has clients like OPTiM, Ameriprise, UnitedHealth, Ecolab, General Motors. Tempo is actually a studio that was built for startups, small and medium businesses using, you know, obviously a very lean approach, a very lean, agile approach to delivery. So we’re delivering much quicker and WordPress is a staple of that business as well. So I think it speaks to the fact that WordPress is appropriate for the enterprise and WordPress is appropriate for, you know, startups and small businesses. And having the right partner helps you determine the right implementation of WordPress. So we’re in Minneapolis, but we have clients all over. Nyasha: That is cool. Topher: Yeah. I really liked the idea of having the smaller, lean agency for the people who need smaller, lean stuff. Nancy: I mean, it’s been good for us because also what we’re finding is even larger companies that don’t want to invest a ton of dollars in testing an idea will come through the Tempo doors, and we’ll test and run and prototype some of their concepts with them and they’re not going through this giant process and there’s not so many stops and starts in the process. It’s a much quicker experience. Topher: Yeah. I noticed LinkedIn says you’ve been running an agency for 21 years now. Nancy: Hmm. Topher: I am someone who has been around the agency trail a lot. Especially in the last few years, agencies are struggling to keep people employed lately. Are you still happy with that? I’m not asking if you’re happy if you did it. Are you still happy continuing to do it? Do you see you doing it till you’re 80? Nancy: I’m barely gonna breathe till I’m 80. So that’s an interesting question. First of all, Clockwork wasn’t our first rodeo. So we had done this before. We actually started- Topher: I’m sorry. Who’s we? Nancy: Oh, sure. I have business partners, and I’ve been with them for 175 years. That’s what it feels like, speaking about, you know, something. They actually started up an internet service provider in 1994. Topher: Oh, wow. Nancy: And that is how I met them, and ultimately became a partner and the president of that company, which was… Is it okay if we have dogs in the hallway, this hallway chats? Nyasha: Yeah, of course. We love dogs. Nancy: He picks now to bark, right? Topher: Yeah. Nancy: Sorry about him. That’s Nacho. And he’s very, very, very vocal. I didn’t think for a minute that he would be backing. My apologies. Anyway. So we started in internet service provider in ’94, ’95, built the first website for a commercial client in 1995, sold that company in 2001. We had had an investor prior to that, and worked with that investor pretty heavily, and then walked away from that started Clockwork in January of 2002. And we called it a startover instead of a startup. We sort of had a better idea of how we wanted to operate. And we’ve evolved over those 21 years. We started out as a web dev shop. And I think the distinction, relative to what you said, is I don’t consider us an agency. When we started we were… I mean, you know, the term is subjective. You can see an agency the way you want to and I’ll see the way I want to. But when we first started, we were competing with advertising agencies. And advertising agencies saw digital as the bastard stepchild, right? It’s something we put in the basement. There’s too sad, sad developers down there, and we throw creative ideas at them and they execute in line with our expectations and deliver something that maybe is functional but not user-friendly, and maybe delivers on business requirements. We build software and change businesses. We’re doing a lot. So we don’t do digital marketing. We don’t do banner ads. We’re not doing pay-per-click stuff. We’re not doing any of that. We are doing consulting around customer experience and user experience, product development. We have a change enablement practice, which makes us different because technology changes big businesses. Businesses are fundamentally changed when we build the solutions for them, right? So we are helping our clients think through how to bring their workforce along to ensure the success of these products. So that’s a little different than what we see in your average dev shop. But over the years, we have evolved from being considered an agency to really being a consultancy. And now we see ourselves competing with some of the big three. We see us invited to tables where we’re also seeing Slalom or Accenture. And we do as much thinking and innovation work, strategy work as we do development work. So it’s a little different. Do I love it? Do I see myself doing it forever? I’ll tell you, I don’t see myself working for anybody else for a while. And there’s a reason for that. I think the reason we’ve been around for 21 years is we don’t have a holding company trying to tell us… you know, I mean, we’re still… I mean, I know you can relate to this. I’m going to assume that you can both relate to this, but tell me if you can’t. You’ve been doing it so long, you know what’s up, right? Topher: Yeah. Nancy: And some force comes in and acquires the organization, that changes everything because suddenly they’re less concerned about quality, more concerned about bottom line, or less concerned about security, more concerned about budget, or the sale itself. I mean, my God, when we were acquired the last time, I remember sitting in rooms where all they cared about was the sales pipeline and the closed sales. Not whether or not we could actually deliver the work, not whether or not we had the right people in the right seats to deliver on the promises. Topher: Yeah, the money. Nancy: It was all about the money. And that’s just not who we’ve ever been. And you know this too. I mean, I hate to keep saying we’re both old, but come on, we’re both old for the internet. We’ve been around for a long time. I’m like the grandma in internet years. And you know that there’s a lot of people out there that still deliver vapor, that still talk a lot of air, but couldn’t actually execute if their lives depended on it, that don’t understand the nuances of the technology. We are not those people. And I think that 21 years with this company alone, but that, you know, 26 or seven years cumulatively is really quite something and valuable to our clients. And the fact that we enjoy delivering makes us different. And we enjoy the success that our clients experience as a result of our relationship. That also makes us different. So, do I want to do this forever? No, because where there is a job, there are people and people are starting to be the hardest part about technology. But I can’t see myself doing it for anybody else anytime soon. So there you go. I think we may find some of the same things we found 25 years ago. And that is it’s really hard to compete when the holding companies own all the talent. You know, when the big monsters own all the talent, it’s hard to compete. The wage inflation situation that we’re all experiencing is happening because of, you know, the talent wars that are occurring. And it’s hard to create sustainable businesses in the shadow of all of that. Topher: Yeah. Nancy: I’m a windbag. Sorry. Topher: No, that’s all right. Nyasha: That is okay. Topher: That is exactly what I was looking for. Do you ever go to WordCamp anymore? Nancy: I haven’t. I haven’t but I’m not opposed to it. I’m not opposed to it. I go where I’m asked to speak because I like to have a job. I like to be put to work. It’s fun. It’s fun. And you know, I don’t talk about tech hardly at all. I’m really talking about motivating people. I’m doing a talk on Thursday for the Minnesota Interactive Marketing Association, and that talk is about not fearing the robots. Like get in the driver’s seat and stop being afraid. You know, because most of the conversations about developing technology, emerging technologies are ridiculous. Like the idea that we’re suddenly going to be in a sequel to repo man just blows my mind. Topher: That leads me to my next thing. You do a lot of things besides run an agency. I have an email newsletter, and it’s about 1/10 the length of yours. So I know how long it takes to put something like that together. How do you manage to fit all that in? Nancy: Well, with help. I mean, I’d be lying if I said I didn’t have help. I do have help. I have a secret weapon. Her name is Liz. And Liz helps me with it. Now, I do write it. I do conceive of the ideas. But I’ll tell you between Liz and Nathan, Nathan is the… he’s the proofer. He looks for my typos. So if you ever see a typo in that newsletter, just call Nathan out and I’ll have him drawn and quartered. I mean, I have a great team. I mean, nothing good happens because of one person, right? I’m grateful that I have a subscriber base for the newsletter. The newsletter I do because I love it and I hear from people every month when I send it out. I really try to make it meaningful and helpful. So that is of just a personal joy. The book writing is about credibility, but also because I have something to say. It’s like, you know, I wrote that book “Work Like a Boss”, and honestly, it’s a love letter to everybody who just can’t get their feet under them, you know, in the workplace, because the whole book was about having agency and self-empowerment and self-awareness. Because I think unless you work for yourself, you witness how often people just sort of throw their hands up and act powerless. I don’t think we’re living in a time where anybody can afford to sit in their lack of power and hope things improve. Nyasha: Yes. That’s amazing. I want to add, like you said earlier that you’re old, you’re not. What you are is a powerful force of awesomeness. And I have to learn from you because you hit on so many things I’m looking for. I want my own business. I want my own agency. I really don’t know how much longer I can keep doing this for other people. I think it takes a wise and powerful person to realize that and know that and to execute it like you’re doing. Like, with the time and everything, I know you have your secret weapon, but I just think it’s amazing. It is amazing what you’re doing. Nancy: You’re kind. I have a great team. I have a great team. And honestly, I mean, what you’ve just said is exactly sort of my career path in that I’ve always been too much. I’ve always been a windbag. I’ve always been too masculine. So I don’t fit the lady business mold. I’ve always been too opinionated. Right? So working in a typical situation, there just were never any welcome mats thrown out for me when I was, you know, on the job hunt. When I talk to young folks, I’m reminded of how often I was told I was too much. “You’re too much. You’re too big. You’re too loud, too opinionated, too dyke-y, too all sorts of things. And I think we’re living in a time where we have to start embracing people’s toos because that’s what makes them exceptional. And it’s exceptional people that are going to help us evolve our businesses and get them to the next level. So I really believe that the traditional ways of work just don’t work anymore. And that’s why work is so broken. That’s why we have quiet quitting. That’s why everybody’s in an existential crisis. That’s why we still want to be taking a nap post-pandemic. But we live in a system of capitalism. So many of these systems have to be dismantled. But unless we get together and agree to do that, we’re stuck in it. So how do we make the best of it? And I think that’s the opportunity we have. I don’t necessarily

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Episode 176 – A Chat With Nancy Lyons is an episode from Hallway Chats by Topher and Cate DeRosia.

This episode is 41:19 long.

This episode was published on Nov 16, 2023.

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